I have been following this film and backstory.  My 7 year old survived an abortion attempt by her birthmother, so it’s a super emotional issue for my family.  I cannot imagine what it must feel like for a person to discover that information.  The film has been well received and reaching audiences.

Being a “survivor” of that is surely horrible, and I don’t want to minimize it.
That said, safe and legal abortions would make the “survivor” issue moot: there wouldn’t be “botched” abortions or desperate attempts at self-abortions by natural mothers. That is not an issue that the filmmakers want to address—they admittedly have an evangelical Christian agenda and donate a percentage of the film’s revenue to evangelical Christian groups that promote adoption.
This is truly a sad story. And that’s all it is—one sad and horrible story.  There are other sad and horrible stories on all parts of the adoption spectrum.
This film—made in 4 weeks and distributed through Christian evangelical circles— is propaganda from filmmakers on the Christian right to discourage reproductive freedom and vilify natural mothers.

They certainly are pro-life but they did not vilify the birth mom. They did a very good job on adoption issues.

I think many people could learn from the film if they are pro-life or pro choice.

It was a safe abortion in a clinic there was nothing said about self abortions at all.

I don’t know how long it took to make but I do not see the point of that comment.

They were clear in the movie it was a christian family and that is certainly their right.

I wrote a lengthy post about this on my blog:
http://embracingtheodyssey.com/?p=1006

I felt it had some redeeming qualities, but I disagree about the way they handled the adoption issues. I felt the adoption part of the storyline was highly unrealistic and manipulated to support the pro-life message and that it catered to a lot of negative stereotypes.

OdysseyMamaC - thanks for the link to your thoughtful review.  I have heard that line: “Thanks for wanting me.” quoted by quite a few people as to why they think the movie is so great and it really gets on my nerves. 

This review by a bmother covers similar points:

http://onicaruswings.blogspot.ca/2012/03/why-i-loathe-premise-of-october-baby.html

I particularly like this excerpt:

“I get angry when the church and pro-lifers say that adoption is the alternative to abortion. It is not. Life is the alternative to abortion. Adoption is the alternative to parenting. These are two separate decisions that should not be made at the same time. Every woman that has ever been in a crisis pregnancy knows that first you decide if you want to have and abortion or not, then you decide what you are going to do with the baby once you decide to let the baby live. Once again, adoption is not the alternative to abortion.”

I haven’t seen the movie yet and would like to, but wanted to comment on the excerpt written by the birthmother that ends with…“Once again, adoption is not the alternative to abortion.”

I agree that choosing life for your baby is the alternative to having an abortion, and agree that out of the two life-affirming decisions in an unplanned pregnancy, adoption is an alternative decision to parenting.  However, adoption is also an alterntive decision for abortion, as the reasons an expectant mother in an crisis pregnancy consider/choose abortion (not feeling able to parent, not being ready to parent, not wanting to parent , etc.) are reasons why expectant mothers consider/choose adoption.  If a women in an unplanned pregnancy does not feel able/want to parent, then adoption is a loving alternative decision to abortion that can be made (as they both do not involve parenting). 

I do agree that choosing life for your baby, and choosing adoption are two separate decisons. and think they are both very important decisionsI, but don’t think a birthmother can say what “every woman in a crisis pregnancy” knows that you decide first in making a decision about their options. (or how they “should” decide).  I think that each expectant mother in an unplanned pregnancy is an individual, and may arrive at their decision in a different way than another, or than most others.  I did personally know an expectant mother who in desperation had really thought about abortion for her unplanned pregnancy, but felt that it was wrong, and was considering adoption after options counseling.  She used the term, “I’m putting out a fleece,” when she wrote to us by email about possibly adopting her baby (She felt that she couldn’t parent again because she was a single mother with four children whose husband had left her for another woman).  So for her, she chose adoption as an alternative to having an abortion,    . 

I do think adoption does need to be carefully/thoughtfully considered before choosing to do tha,t as it is a very important and significant decision in a woman/her child’s life, and that an expectant mother needs to take as much time as she needs to make that decision (even post-birth).

“However, adoption is also an alterntive decision for abortion, as the reasons an expectant mother in an crisis pregnancy consider/choose abortion (not feeling able to parent, not being ready to parent, not wanting to parent , etc.) are reasons why expectant mothers consider/choose adoption.”

You miss her point.  She is saying the decisions should be made separately.

Even if she doesn’t feel able to parent and doesn’t want an abortion, she should still be given a holistic type of counselling that does involve improving her life overall so she can then truly make the parenting decision near term.

Also, the way that some of the more aggressive places pushing adoption instead of abortion, eg saying that the client will regret it forever if they have an abortion and then suggesting adoption and making it sound as if there will be no negative feelings is a bit dishonest.

You are right in saying that the reasons for not continuing the pregnancy are the same but for many women the negative feelings that they may have had after an abortion, they may also have after adoption - so one should be very clear to not “softsoap” the adoption option.  I just think counsellors need to be careful when counselling adoption as an alternative to adoption because she could be going from the spiritual frypan into the spiritual fire if one uses scare tactics re abortion and softsoaps adoption - one must be honest about both options and also treat the client themselves as a person and discuss their overall issues.

In the case of your client, there would have been no harm if the counsellor had said:  Adoption is certainly an option; however, why don’t we improve your situation first and then we will revisit the parenting options nearer your time.  Note that this approach is neither pushing parenting or adoption - it is getting the client to a place where she can consider her options in as good an emotional etc place as possible. 

She may well still decide to go with adoption but she would have been thoroughly counselled re other issues as well.

I think my point is - a personal plan should be first priority - before even considering the parenting choices.  During that time, she may be able to improve her life and the life of the child she is already raising.  Surely we all agree that it is in the best interests of all for her to make the final parenting choice in as good a place as possible.  Discussing parenting choices when vulnerable is not the best time to do it.

I’m at a loss here. what does ““I’m putting out a fleece,” mean?

“You miss her point.  She is saying the decisions should be made separately.”

I do think that choosing life for your baby and choosing adoption are two separate decisions (and shared that in my post), but do not think that they “have to” be made separately or “have to be decided” in the order that the birthmother said (although that order seems logical and probable to me).  A woman could think… “I’m pregnant, and I can’t raise a baby/another baby right now” (options for not parenting are:  abortion/adoption), and then think, “I don’t think abortion is right” (option:  adoption - - - decided).  This would be a way of thinking that would not go in the order suggested by the birthmother who wrote the excerpt, and also a way someone might decide on choosing life for their baby/adoption at the same time.  Perhaps for most deciding this separately would be best to do as this helps slows things down and gives them more time to think which is considered good in the options counseling where I volunteered, but for some adoption may be the reason they are not choosing abortion (in that it would be one or the other and parenting is not a part of their consideration) such as with the expectant mother of four children that I knew.  (Btw, I didn’t meet her at the pregnancy care clinic I volunteered at, she was an emom who contacted us about adoption that we met and almost matched with .  I think she ended up choosing another family to adopt her baby, but I felt good that maybe by considering us to adopt her baby in the beginning when she was feeling desperate, it was an encouragement to her not to choose abortion, and that was the role that God wanted us to have in her crisis pregnancy.)     

“Even if she doesn’t feel able to parent and doesn’t want an abortion, she should still be given a holistic type of counselling that does involve improving her life overall so she can then truly make the parenting decision near term.  Also, the way that some of the more aggressive places pushing adoption instead of abortion, eg saying that the client will regret it forever if they have an abortion and then suggesting adoption and making it sound as if there will be no negative feelings is a bit dishonest. You are right in saying that the reasons for not continuing the pregnancy are the same but for many women the negative feelings that they may have had after an abortion, they may also have after adoption - so one should be very clear to not “softsoap” the adoption option.  I just think counsellors need to be careful when counselling adoption as an alternative to adoption because she could be going from the spiritual frypan into the spiritual fire if one uses scare tactics re abortion and softsoaps adoption - one must be honest about both options and also treat the client themselves as a person and discuss their overall issues.”
 
I like the term you used “sofsoap” (I’ve never heard that before) and agree with you that adoption is an option that also has some very difficult parts to it, such as relinquishment and going on with your life without your baby there being a part of it every day.  That is why I had shared in my post that I think adoption needs to be carefully/thoughtfully considered before choosing to do that as it is a very important and significant decision in a woman/her child’s life, and that an expectant mother needs to take as much time as she needs to make that decision, even post-birth.  However, that being said about adoption also having some very difficult parts, I think that abortion and adoption are also very different…abortion has only pain and loss (and is a negative, life-ending option), while adoption also has joys and blessings (and is a loving, life-affirming option).  With abortion, there is nothing afterwards…with adoption the child has the chance to live and have a fulfilled life.  With some types of adoption, the birthmother/her child can share a part of each other’s hearts/lives, loving each other and having a relationship together.   

“In the case of your client, there would have been no harm if the counselor had said:  Adoption is certainly an option; however, why don’t we improve your situation first and then we will revisit the parenting options nearer your time.  Note that this approach is neither pushing parenting or adoption - it is getting the client to a place where she can consider her options in as good an emotional etc place as possible. She may well still decide to go with adoption but she would have been thoroughly counseled re other issues as well.”

I think you are including both parenting/adoption in the expression “parenting options, “  is that right?  (I don’t support pushing either parenting or adoption on someone, and of course not abortion either).  I understand what you are saying that you feel it is best to counsel/help a woman with her life issues before she decides about options for a crisis pregnancy, and if she is willing to do that, that is fine.  However, some women are feeling such stress/emotions over experiencing a crisis pregnancy, that I think they would want to talk about and make that decision first, and might have difficulty focusing on other things.  Also, if a woman is wanting to make an adoption plan, having her wait until the end of her pregnancy to do that may not be a good idea, as she might want to have time to receive counseling specific to adoption and also choose and get to know the family for her baby.  (I think you know that with making an adoption plan, an expectant mother can change her mind at any point until the TPR is signed and the waiting period is over, she is not obligated or locked into placing her baby for adoption)

“I’m at a loss here. what does ““I’m putting out a fleece,” mean?”

Hi, I also did not know what that meant, and had asked my husband about it at the time the expectant mother contacted us and wrote that.  He thought he knew what it meant and explained what he thought to me back then, but tonight couldn’t remember what he had thought before about it, so I looked it up on the computer.  It is from the Bible, and is in Judges 6. (I’m paraphrasing:  Gideon was asking God to show him a sign, if he was really supposed to do something.)
 
The expectant mother that contacted us was a Christian, and we’re a Christian couple (although I did not remember that Scripture verse and know what that really meant until you asked me that question today, I was thinking it meant something else).  In the context of what she was saying, (“I guess I am putting out a fleece”) I think the emom meant for God to show her a sign if she was supposed to place her baby for adoption, since in her desperation she had really been considering abortion (even though as a Christian she knew that was wrong for her to do).  We had contact with her for about a month and a half and almost matched with her, but didn’t… I think she ended up choosing another family to adopt her baby, which was fine and I felt like our part in her crisis pregnancy was that God used us in the beginning as an encouragement to her to not have an abortion.

“However, some women are feeling such stress/emotions over experiencing a crisis pregnancy, that I think they would want to talk about and make that decision first, and might have difficulty focusing on other things. “

First of all, I’m not saying that adoption shouldn’t be considered an option but it shouldn’t really be used as the sole hook for not having an abortion - the discussion should be more open-ended than that.  I am saying that one should be very careful about how one counsels the alternatives or else you could be creating further problems. 

I don’t agree that they should be counselled in depth re their parenting/adoptions options while in a crisis.  I still believe they should have their personal counselling first as they may feel differently afterwards.  The problem with the adoption option counselling, especially the one provided by the NCFA*, is that it puts a woman in the mindset of “parenting = selfish = immature” vs “adoption = selfless = mature” and “your baby would prefer adoption” and can affect further decision making.  No-one is saying they have to wait until the day before birth before making an adoption plan.  I am just saying that if one decides at 8-12 weeks to continue their pregnancy, even if knowing that adoption being a possibility is one of the reason they decide to not abort, there is no reason to offer the adoption option counselling then.  As I said above, one can say that one will provide counselling re adoption but that first of all as part of that counselling, they should be receive personal counselling first. 

*I did their on-line course which they claim treats adoption on an equal basis to other options.  No, it doesn’t - it sells adoption as superior to parenting and uses dishonesty to do so.  It is not suitable for use on any person early in their pregnancy, whether desiring adoption or not.  It can be done later with plenty of time to spare.  If she decides to continue her pregnancy at 8-12 weeks, even if she puts aside 3-4 months for personal counselling, that still gives her plenty of time for her counselling, “adoption plan” and picking a family - many APs say that they wouldn’t want to be matched to a bmom for more than a month or so anyway. 

“(I think you know that with making an adoption plan, an expectant mother can change her mind at any point until the TPR is signed and the waiting period is over, she is not obligated or locked into placing her baby for adoption)”
Again, yes I do but when she receives the counselling early in the pregnancy, it is very hard for her to overcome that adoption = selfless/mature parenting = selfish, immature thing afterwards.  I’ve seen all too often on other forums where eparents will often write a thread where they really would like to parent but feel selfish even considering it and keep going on how more selfless it would be to place and how they don’t want to let down the HAPs even though you can tell they don’t want to relinquish- you could see that they were struggling to get past their counselling (normally the replies would just offer unbiased advice and offer resources).  That is why so many women find it hard to consider parenting after being counselled on adoption because they have been made to feel that they would be immature to do so and that it is not what their baby would want. 

Adoptions counselling is very different to other counselling it seems -eg if a woman having marriage difficulties was counselled using the method used in adoptions options counselling, she would probably end up divorcing her husband 99% of the time.

“I don’t agree that they should be counselled in depth re their parenting/adoptions options while in a crisis.  I still believe they should have their personal counselling first as they may feel differently afterwards.  As I said above, one can say that one will provide counselling re adoption but that first of all as part of that counselling, they should be receive personal counselling first.”
 
I understand what you are saying (that you feel it is best for the woman to receive personal crisis counseling first before she receives counseling about options for her unplanned pregnancy), and if she wants to do that she can.  However, she may not want personal counseling (she may just want to talk about her options for her unplanned pregnancy), and that Is her choice, personal counseling can not be forced on her, as neither can options counseling. 

“Again, yes I do but when she receives the counselling early in the pregnancy, it is very hard for her to overcome that adoption = selfless/mature parenting = selfish, immature thing afterwards.  I’ve seen all too often on other forums where eparents will often write a thread where they really would like to parent but feel selfish even considering it and keep going on how more selfless it would be to place and how they don’t want to let down the HAPs even though you can tell they don’t want to relinquish- you could see that they were struggling to get past their counselling (normally the replies would just offer unbiased advice and offer resources).  That is why so many women find it hard to consider parenting after being counselled on adoption because they have been made to feel that they would be immature to do so and that it is not what their baby would want. “

I understand what you’re saying, but wrong adoption option counseling should not be done at any point in pregnancy for expectant mothers (i.e. counseling that pressures or that says/implies that adoption is positive and parenting is negative for a single mother), I know you agree with that.  So if counseling is done for adoption as an option in an ethical manner… emoms who have made adoption plans and then feel that they want to parent (or are not sure about their decision to place anymore), would be counseled that is okay to change their decision or take some time out to think more about it.  If an adoption agency is ethical and the emom is in contact with them throughout her adoption plan, and they realize at some point that she is not feeling sure of her decision to place anymore, they should counsel her appropriately.

Although I support open adoption wholeheartedly as an adoptee/adoptive mommy and feel it is a healthier form of adoption for adoptees, and their birth/adoptive families… there is a part of more modern adoption that I struggled with, the pre-birth matching process which did not take place in adoptions of years past.  (I think others have mentioned it also in a negative way)  What you mentioned about expectant parents not wanting to let down hopeful adoptive parents (that they have matched and made an adoption plan with) is related to the pre-birth matching process. I think there are some benefits for the emoms considering adoption in getting to choose/know the prospective adoptive parents for their child and make their wishes known about post-adoption contact (so that is good), but there are difficulties for both eparents and prospective adoptive parents in this process. Expectant parents could feel a sense of obligation that shouldn’t be a part of their decision to place/not place for adoption, (related to not wanting to let the potential adoptive parents down and monies that were paid for their expenses by the potential adoptive parents), and hopeful adoptive parents can put their hearts out there and kind of get strung along emotionally by emoms who are thinking they want to place their baby for adoption and also pay money for the expectant mother’s expenses if they match… which is difficult for them emotionally/financially if it doesn’t work out, and especially if this happens multiple times. 
 
Part of me wishes adoptive parents could join the process after the mother was sure that she wanted to place (and TPR was signed like in the past), and then they could meet and have an open adoption relationship together… that would be a change in adoption that is sort of a throw-back to older days. The hospital time would then be just for the emom and her baby, and would be different than it has been for some adoptive parents such as ourselves who were blessed to be able to be there for the birth of our daughters, but also as I shared in a previous post was the hardest time in our open adoption with our childrens’ birthmother (and of course was very, very hard for her).  (I’m not sure if having the prospective adoptive parents at the hospital makes it more difficult or a little easier for emoms who do place… maybe for each one it is different.)

“there is a part of more modern adoption that I struggled with, the pre-birth matching process which did not take place in adoptions of years past. ”

Kris, we are both in agreement here.

“I understand what you’re saying, but wrong adoption option counseling should not be done at any point in pregnancy for expectant mothers (i.e. counseling that pressures or that says/implies that adoption is positive and parenting is negative for a single mother), I know you agree with that.”

Implying that adoption is positive and parenting is negative is exactly what the best known adoptions options counselling course (the one run by the NCFA) does.  Their website says they have trained over 19,000 social workers (not just adoption agency workers) to “counsel” women with unplanned pregnancies. It is often these women that contact the agencies.

On another thread an adoption agency (one that is offering to take cases from the closed San Antonio one) outright states that it supports natural mothers in their grief and adoptive parents in their joy—before and during the hospital stay.
That sure sounds like a bias to me.

Areyouserious:  “Implying that adoption is positive and parenting is negative is exactly what the best known adoptions options counselling course (the one run by the NCFA) does.  Their website says they have trained over 19,000 social workers (not just adoption agency workers) to “counsel” women with unplanned pregnancies. It is often these women that contact the agencies”

Wow, that would be sad for them to do that.  In support of adoption (and all the members of the adoption triad), NCFA’s counseling should be be ethical and supporting adoption as just a positive option, like parenting.

Patsymae:  “On another thread an adoption agency (one that is offering to take cases from the closed San Antonio one) outright states that it supports natural mothers in their grief and adoptive parents in their joy—before and during the hospital stay. That sure sounds like a bias to me”

I don’t really care for how that sounds with their wording.  (That duality does exist with adoption, but it is a hard part of adoption, and not something that should be said in a casual or trite manner, which that makes it sound that way.) 

Patsymae, are you also an adoptee or a birthmother?

Kris, when I get time, I will log into the training scheme and quote some of it.

In the meantime, I don’t know if this is the agency Patsy is talking about but this is a tract for “pregnant women considering adoption” from an agency mentioned on the “Help picking a good agency after ours closed (ASA)” thread:

http://www.americanadoptions.com/pdf/BP_STAGE1.pdf

It is very hyperbolic to say the least - the first thing it says is “What does adoption mean to a child?Love,
Opportunity, The American Dream”.  Also certain factors of the “birthmother stories gave me concern as an adoptee - the constant referrals by themselves re being a miracle for another for another women.

*You are a miracle for someone!*
*I was placed in this situation for someone to be blessed with the miracle of a child.*
*I also know the happiness that it brought to Ryan’s
adoptive parents.*
*You are making another family extremely happy and you may not even realize it.*

I am not decrying the happiness of adoptive parents but that should be the byproduct of the situation - certainly not central to it.

Btw I have attached a link to all the private agencies available in CANADA.  If you click on almost all of them, you will notice how matter of fact most of them are:
http://www.canadaadopts.com/canada/resources_priagencies.shtml

Compare that to the majority of US agencies, especially the one listed above.

Just another link - the following lady has an agency which is extremely successful - this is because she has multiple (over 50, I think) links to get the attention of women with unplanned pregnancies.  I am going to include a post about young Christian women with unplanned pregnancies:

http://unplannedpregnancy.blogspot.com.au/2011/09/christian-single-and-pregnantgod-has.html

Note that in theory, this is supposed to be a blog offering help for those with unplanned pregnancies - they are only offering one sort of help.

I suspect that posting all these links will backfire and that people on this thread reading them will be “moved to joyful tears by the miracle of adoption”.

Kris A., one thing I got from the quote is that this agency had already decided—well in advance of the birth—that the natural parents would be feeling grief and the adoptive (not prospective) parents would be feeling joy—that says to me that this outcome was assumed predetermined from the get-go and makes me highly doubt that this agency presents unbiased counseling or offers support for any choice except adoption.

Hi!  I went to that link for American Adoptions that you shared and didn’t read everything, but I see what you are saying, that agency doesn’t just promote adoption as a positive option in unplanned pregnancies, it seems like it promotes it over parenting.  I don’t like how they say “Adoption vs. Parenting,” and would not say that, x they are not in competition, both are just loving options for an unplanned pregnancy. I think it is fine to talk about “Myths in Adoption,” and share information about adoption and positive aspects of adoption, and have headings like:  Positive Things About Adoption, and Adoption, One of the Loving Options for an Unplanned Pregnancy I also don’t think they should have a page, “Myths about Parenting” at all and don’t like them saying “The American Dream, “ unless they say that for parenting too because it is also be a positive choice in an unplanned pregnancy They talk about pressuring to parent in the myths about parenting page, and although I do think that can happen and think that pressuring an expectant mother to place her baby in her biological family can happen and do not support those things happening (as our daughters’ birthmom’s family pressured her not to place and offered to raise the baby for her, and also know of another person whose parents kind of bribed her not to place her third child for adoption), I do not really like that they talk about that in that way on their website.  They should rather say something like… there are options to choose for you and your baby, and no one should pressure you about your decision to do what you think is best for you and your baby.

I looked at this website from the link for agencies in Canada that you shared, and thought it sounded nice.  (http://www.adoptionbychoice.ca/index.html)
What do you think about these two agencies’ (both are non-profit) and adoption facilitator’s websites that I have come into contact with:

http://www.impregnant.org/  (they talk about all the options on their website)

http://www.adoptionhelp.org/im-pregnant/testimonials (just address adoption option)

http://adoption-facilitator.org/birthmotherfaqs.html

“I am not decrying the happiness of adoptive parents but that should be the byproduct of the situation – certainly not central to it.”
 
Yes, I think so too, that it shouldn’t be central.  I think the central reason that birthmothers should choose placement is because adoption is what they think is best for their baby and/or for them (i.e not feeling ready or wanting to parent right now).  If their main reasons for choosing adoption are for their baby/their personal situation, then I think it’s okay as an added part of choosing adoption that they are also bringing joy to a family who wants a baby (I think that was the case with our daughters’ birthmother in her first placement.  With her second placement, I think in addition to feeling like she couldn’t raise the baby as her circumstances were still similar, it was because she wanted the siblings to be together in the same family).

I know you’d mentioned being in agreement when I shared that I struggled with the pre-birth matching process of modern adoption…which has some difficult factors for both expectant parents/prospective adoptive parents making an adoption plan.  However, I think it does have an important benefit for the adoptive child… if the baby is placed in adoption, it can go directly to his/her adoptive parents and begin bonding together with them sooner than in domestic adoptions of the past.  In past adoptions like with me, the baby was placed in foster care for a number of weeks until the TPR was done (and although this was potentially better for the birthmothers and easier on the adoptive parents), it was harder on the baby who developed bonds with the foster parents and then had to separate from them also (another interrupted attachment), and so suffered more in the old adoption process.  (Jane Brown had shared in a post about “New RAD Question” that babies are most vulnerable to these things )  Anyway, just wanted to share about that after what I had written earlier.

With “i’mpregnant”, it may mention all options but they are set out in such a way that adoption is given the best rap.  Note that the parenting option comes with a list of 100 things to think about.  Now that seems fair enough but the problem is that they are listed not so that they can be worked through, they are listed in the hope of scaring the reader off.  It is a very common tactic.  If you want to demoralise someone - throw lots of questions at them without offering any help in finding answers. 

Are any negatives listed on the adoption page?  No, instead the page points out the positives only.  When they ask questions, they provide positive answers. 

“In past adoptions like with me, the baby was placed in foster care for a number of weeks “

Today’s cradle care isn’t like that.  The bmother can visit her baby at any time.  If she has been staying at a mother’s home, she can keep the baby there and learn skills during that time.

“as her circumstances were still similar”

And has anyone ever helped her to improve her circumstances?  That should be the point of counselling women with unplanned pregnancies.  By helping them to help themselves, they are helping their child whatever choice they make. 

As for being “coerced to parent” - there is one big difference.  Once a woman has relinquished her child - that’s it, there is no going back.  If a woman decides to parent, the option to relinquish is still available.

Also, I know of a couple of mothers who ended up “having” to parent because the father wouldn’t sign and they ended up doing really well - (the fathers weren’t living with them) and being really glad in the end that they ended up parenting, even though they were annoyed with the father at the time.  In fact, one of them said she breaks out into a cold sweat when she thinks that her baby could have been adopted. 

Btw I don’t believe that adopton has to be mentioned to a pregnant women if she has specifcally says she wants to parent.  If she says “I’d like to parent but need help finding resources” - then help finding resources is what she should receive.

Hi areyouserious, 

“With “i’mpregnant”, it may mention all options but they are set out in such a way that adoption is given the best rap.  Note that the parenting option comes with a list of 100 things to think about.  Now that seems fair enough but the problem is that they are listed not so that they can be worked through, they are listed in the hope of scaring the reader off.  It is a very common tactic.  If you want to demoralise someone - throw lots of questions at them without offering any help in finding answers.  Are any negatives listed on the adoption page?  No, instead the page points out the positives only.  When they ask questions, they provide positive answers.  “

I hope that the 100 things to think about were not done for the reason that you mentioned, but understand what you are saying.
 
“In past adoptions like with me, the baby was placed in foster care for a number of weeks “ Today’s cradle care isn’t like that.  The bmother can visit her baby at any time.  If she has been staying at a mother’s home, she can keep the baby there and learn skills during that time.” 

I have not heard that term before, is “cradle care” only in your country, or also over here?  If the mother can visit her baby at any time (but the baby is not with her or being cared for by her), I would think that would help the baby some if she does visit by still having some contact with her, as there would not be an “abrupt separation” from her which is supposed to be detrimental to the baby.  However, that would have some of the same result in that the baby is still being cared for by another person/caregiver, and thus if the mother continues with the adoption plan and then the baby goes to the adoptive parents, they would be the third ones that the baby would form an attachment with, rather than the second ones such as in the modern pre-birth matching adoption process that takes place in open adoption. (If the mother does not visit the baby, then the result would be the same for the baby as being placed in foster care as they did back when I was adopted.)  The link that I gave you for the adoption facilitator in Cooperative Adoption Consulting promotes a different way of doing things post-birth in open adoption.  She believes that an abrupt separation from the mother is detrimental to the baby, and so the mother is still there with the baby/prospective adoptive parents for a two week period following the birth.  I think this might be very hard for some birthmothers to do and maybe isn’t something that they all could do or would want to do, but it is done for the benefit of the adopted child.  (It also would be beneficial for the mother to breastfeed or pump breast milk even if she places the baby for adoption, but again I don’t think all would want to do this)  I think being with the mother (in a mother’s home) after the birth while she decides about the adoption plan would be beneficial for the baby, although I’m not sure if the baby is placed for adoption if it would have been better for the baby also to be bonding with the adoptive parents at the same time as well (such as in the way the adoption facilitator I mentioned has the birthmom/adoptive parents who work with her do). 

“as her circumstances were still similar” – “And has anyone ever helped her to improve her circumstances?  That should be the point of counselling women with unplanned pregnancies.  By helping them to help themselves, they are helping their child whatever choice they make.”

No, I don’t think she received any counseling post-birth of our first daughter and her circumstances had only improved a little before the baby was born (she got pregnant again very soon afterwards), but has improved since then.  I think post-adoption counseling would have helped her after our first daughter was born and was offered by our agency, but I don’t think she received any.  (Our personal situation with our daughters’ birthmother placing two of her children with us has several facets, but because it is personal I don’t want to share publically about it here with everybody. I can share that I think that her decision had much to do with wanting our daughter to have a biological sibling and for the girls to grow up together, and I think that was why she continued with the adoption even when it was hard for her at the hospital.)
 
“As for being “coerced to parent” - there is one big difference.  Once a woman has relinquished her child - that’s it, there is no going back.  If a woman decides to parent, the option to relinquish is still available.”

Yes, I can understand that difference, but don’t think an expectant mother should be pressured to parent, or be pressured in any way about her decision between the options of parenting/adoption.  I do think that if she is considering or wanting to make an adoption plan for her baby, that she needs to thoughtfully and carefully think about that,  (as it is such an important decision for her and her child) and give herself as much time as she needs to do so.  I think it would be good to thoughtfully consider adoption for most of her pregnancy and hold off making an adoption plan and matching with a prospective adoptive parents until her last trimester (so that she has had a lot of time to think about it and feel more confident about her decision) . However, if she feels that she wants to make an adoption plan earlier in her pregnancy (for whatever reason… to not choose abortion, give her peace of mind now, etc.), that is also her decision.  I support guidance/encouragement about the things I shared, but no pressure and letting the woman decide as it is her baby and her decision.  If you are supporting that it is okay to pressure for the parenting option only (but not the adoption option) that is your opinion of course, but I don’t agree.

“Also, I know of a couple of mothers who ended up “having” to parent because the father wouldn’t sign and they ended up doing really well - (the fathers weren’t living with them) and being really glad in the end that they ended up parenting, even though they were annoyed with the father at the time.  In fact, one of them said she breaks out into a cold sweat when she thinks that her baby could have been adopted.”

I’m glad that they are doing well and are happy now about how it turned out.    (There was a mother shared about here whose adoption wasn’t going through because of Native American heritage on the father’s side, and she let the baby go into foster care. )

“Btw I don’t believe that adopton has to be mentioned to a pregnant women if she has specifcally says she wants to parent.  If she says “I’d like to parent but need help finding resources” - then help finding resources is what she should receive.”

I think that’s fine.  However, do you feel that same way if she says specifically that she wants to place her baby for adoption?  I don’t have a problem with a counselor asking if an emom would like to also hear or read information about parenting/adoption if she is saying that she wants to do the other (as long as there is no pressure or forcing of information if the women doesn’t want to hear it), because she can just say no.

“I think that’s fine.  However, do you feel that same way if she says specifically that she wants to place her baby for adoption?  I don’t have a problem with a counselor asking if an emom would like to also hear or read information about parenting/adoption if she is saying that she wants to do the other (as long as there is no pressure or forcing of information if the women doesn’t want to hear it), because she can just say no.”

The problem is that they don’t just leave it there.  This is when the counsellor who has been trained in adoption counselling starts to pull out their big guns, including bringing up all the negatives of parenting and also playing on the mother’s concerns and then brings up adoption again, selling it in a subtle way.  They may keep doing that through the whole pregnancy.  If a woman thought she was capable of being a parent beforehand, she feels far less capable of it by the end and in fact can end up feeling that if she parented her own child, that she might be a danger to it or that the child would resent her for ever.

I suppose my view also about not mentioning adoption unless asked is as follows:

If you were having marriage problems and you went to a marriage counsellor and said you wanted to save your marriage , you would expect them to help you save your marriage.

If you were having marriage problems and you went to a marriage counsellor and said you wanted a divorce, you would still expect them to counsel you about saving your marriage. 

That is because it is worth trying to save a marriage before embarking on divorce.  Divorce may eventually be the best option but no counsellor worthy of their name is going to recommend divorce before at least discussing the possibility of saving the marriage are they?


Thus if you were pregnant and you went to a counsellor about resources for raising your child, you would hope that they would help you in regards to that.

If you said you wanted to relinquish your child then I would expect the counsellor to find out why, not just say “fair enough”.
 
This is because trying to keep a family together is still the main goal.  “Divorcing” the child from the mother is something that shouldn’t be undertaken lightly.

“The problem is that they don’t just leave it there.  This is when the counsellor who has been trained in adoption counselling starts to pull out their big guns, including bringing up all the negatives of parenting and also playing on the mother’s concerns and then brings up adoption again, selling it in a subtle way. “

I see where you are coming from in the way that you feel/believe about a counselor counseling someone regarding parenting/adoption.  One difference between you and I is simply how we think about counseling about adoption, I’m thinking of it as being done in an ethical way as sharing information and as another positive option for an unplanned pregnancy if parenting is not desired (for reasons of the expectant mother feeling that she can’t, or is not ready, or doesn’t want to be a parent at this time, etc.)  You are thinking of counseling about adoption in a different way (from things you have heard/learned about happening in some places), and so you are leery of it being presented, which is if it not being done ethically I can understand that.  So our view of counseling about adoption is different,  and I am understanding from what you have shared that it is sometimes not being done appropriately.
 
“Thus if you were pregnant and you went to a counsellor about resources for raising your child, you would hope that they would help you in regards to that.  If you said you wanted to relinquish your child then I would expect the counsellor to find out why, not just say “fair enough”.

I do think if a woman wants to parent, she shouldn’t be talked out of it and can be given referrals for resources to help (that’s what we did at the center I volunteered at).  I also don’t have a problem with a counselor asking a woman why she doesn’t want to parent, as she will have reasons why that she can share and if any are a misinformation, an ethical counselor can give her correct information and help her to understand that (such as if she says, I’m too young to be a mother, it wouldn’t be good for my child.  The counselor could then say, a woman can be a good mother at any age, and there are classes that could teach you how to be a good parent.)  However, I don’t support a counselor pressuring her that she should/must parent or trying to talk her out of adoption if that is the option she chooses, I don’t think that is ethical either.  I support a counselor giving her correct information about whatever option is being discussed, so that she can make an informed choice for her and her baby.  (And I feel that even after adoption, it is always her child too, which it is)

“I suppose my view also about not mentioning adoption unless asked is as follows:”

As you shared your view about not mentioning adoption unless it is asked, I’ll share reasons to want to offer to talk about the option of adoption in “options counseling” (like we did at the center where I volunteered)… if a client wasn’t sure what she was going to do, she had another positive option in addition to parenting to consider/choose from.  Or if a client changed her mind about parenting after she left the center (after talking to her boyfriend, family, or friends), she had another option that she was informed about to consider instead of just abortion.  (I consider as I shared earlier, that adoption is an alternative option in an unplanned pregnancy for both abortion/parenting and gives women another choice to consider instead of just those two.)  Generally the girls/women were coming in to our center during the first half of their pregnancy for a pregnancy test, and then if they were pregnant the counselor would talk with them about their options.  (Btw, by and large the choices were made between abortion and parenting by clients, and clients were also offered accurate information about abortion)  At least if information about all the options had been offered to be shared with the client, then if a client decided not to choose to parent,  they had accurate information about abortion and current information about adoption to help them make an informed decision about their other options.
 
“If you were having marriage problems and you went to a marriage counsellor and said you wanted to save your marriage , you would expect them to help you save your marriage. That is because it is worth trying to save a marriage before embarking on divorce.  Divorce may eventually be the best option but no counsellor worthy of their name is going to recommend divorce before at least discussing the possibility of saving the marriage are they?  This is because trying to keep a family together is still the main goal.  “Divorcing” the child from the mother is something that shouldn’t be undertaken lightly.”
 
While I see where you are coming from in your view about counseling about adoption and understood your analogy about the marriage counselor and saving a marriage/divorce (and it makes sense), I personally wouldn’t liken adoption to a divorce, which is the “worst option” in a marriage relationship.  (To me the “worst option” for an unplanned pregnancy is abortion, because the relationship is over after that.)  I guess using your analogy, “separation in marriage” could be like separation in adoption (the baby is separated from being raised by its biological mother) , but the relationship is not permanently severed, like in a divorce.  (In a marriage separation the husband/wife are physically living apart but are still husband/wife and can reunite later, and in adoption the biological mother/child are physically living apart while the child grows up but are still mother/child too, and can also reunite later)  So the child’s birthmother is still also their mother, and in some types of adoption the birthmother is a part of the child’s life while they are growing up too, and in other types of adoption the birthmother can become a part of an adoptee’s life later on in adulthood.  I do agree also that adoption should not be undertaken lightly, and think that expectant mothers considering that option should take all the time they need to thoughtfully and carefully consider that for themself and their baby.

Kris, I think we have flogged this subject to death lol.  However, I think we are both on the same page in that I think we agree that adoption should be as ethical as possible.

Hi!  Yes, I think we have discussed our thoughts/feelings about this subject quite thoroughtly (lol), and was feeling that way, too.  We do agree about wanting adoption to be as ethical as possible… thanks for sharing.  (Now I just need to see the movie!)

Hugs,
Kris.